{"id":3114,"date":"2010-03-27T12:09:00","date_gmt":"2010-03-27T11:09:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/andrew.albert-visuals.at\/buffet\/charles-freger-empire-and-interview\/"},"modified":"2023-05-01T16:26:45","modified_gmt":"2023-05-01T14:26:45","slug":"charles-freger-empire-and-interview","status":"publish","type":"buffet","link":"https:\/\/andrew-phelps.com\/de\/buffet\/charles-freger-empire-and-interview\/","title":{"rendered":"Charles Fr\u00e9ger &#8211; Empire and an interview"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/andrew-phelps.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/image-392.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-835\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: x-small;\"><strong>EMPIRE<\/strong>, <em>Charles Fr\u00e9ge<\/em>r, 2009. Kehrer Publishing.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: medium;\">Charles Fr\u00e9ger<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: medium;\"><strong>Empire<\/strong> &#8211; the baker&#8217;s dozen, nr. 13&#8230;<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/andrew-phelps.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/image-393.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-836\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/andrew-phelps.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/image-394.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-837\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/andrew-phelps.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/image-395.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-838\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/andrew-phelps.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/image-396.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-839\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/andrew-phelps.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/image-397.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-840\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: x-small;\">my stack of Charles&#8217; 13.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">My friend and fellow <\/span><\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/www.pocproject.com\/\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">POC,<\/span><\/span><\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.charlesfreger.com\/\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">Charles Fr\u00e9ger<\/span><\/span><\/a><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\"> has just released his 13th, (yes <\/span><\/span><em><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">thirteenth<\/span><\/span><\/em><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">), book with <\/span><\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/www.kehrerverlag.com\/html\/de\/aktueller_verlagstip.html\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">KEHRER<\/span><\/span><\/a><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\"> Verlag, called <\/span><\/span><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.charlesfreger.com\/\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">EMPIRE<\/span><\/span><\/a><\/strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">. It is a culmination of his complex portrait series&#8217; involving the uniformed soldiers and guards, paradoxically addressing the role of the &#8220;uniform&#8221; by revealing the vulnerability and spirit of its bearers. <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">Though it is by no means a &#8220;limited edition&#8221; book, I still want to take the chance to pull all of Charles&#8217; books off the shelf, stack them up in an impressive pile, and ask him&#8230;..<\/span><strong><em><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">why<\/span><\/em><\/strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana, serif;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana, serif; color: #1f497d;\"><strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"color: #000000; font-weight: normal; font-family: Helvetica, serif;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">Andrew: Empire<\/span><\/strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\"> is book 13. It is also the most complex in that it takes on political and social issues more directly than some of your most famous work to date. Making books takes tremendous energy (and money). Think of how many photographs you could take for that much time and money. Is it hard to stay motivated to make books?<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"color: #1f497d; font-family: verdana, serif;\"><strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">Charles: <\/span><\/strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">There are more facilities to make book nowadays. First, we get a better control on the quality of the printing. Our files are more precisely corrected and we have the capacity to interact on different parameters of corrections without too much cost. When I think of the price of my scans (from 30 x 40 cm prints) for my \u201cRikishi\u201d book + the test proofs to pay to the printer&#8230;. well, it makes me crazy (especially thinking of the final result which still did not please me at the end).<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">I have now found a better way to get my scans done, especially because it\u2019s very complex\u2026 Color of the skin, uniformity of the colors of the uniforms, uniformity of the background. It may look easy, like factory work, but getting things similar seems more difficult than getting them different. After that, there are also more possibilities on the graphic design. In 10 years, a lot of things have changed, in my point of view. There have been so many photographic books that there is now a tone of references to deal with, and also an average \u201cline\u201d, which I don\u2019t find so fascinating. Too many photographic books look like they have been made by the same graphic designer, printed on the same paper with the same style of cover. It\u2019s a big paradox. On one hand, you may feel that we have the possibility of a real diversity, and on the other one, there\u2019s a mainstream which I find pretty boring. We have all done some book with the ambition of staying \u201csober\u201d, \u201cdistant\u201d, \u201cminimalist\u201d, \u201cobjective\u201d\u2026 which is sometime just a gimmick to avoid the risk of doing it wrong.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">About money, my first four books were mainly financed by the publishers and most of the others were co-financed. Before launching the work on the book, the main work is to find finances, from museums, collections, galleries, co-publishers\u2026 At the end, the book is 70 to 100 % prepaid to the main publisher.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">Books deal with ego. It\u2019s a big ego story where the photographer gets the motivation in that feeling that he will print the holy bible. It takes a lot of energy to deal with all these steps. My last book took me two years of work from the moment we worked on the first pages of layout to the day I received my books\u2026 It\u2019s been more complex than before (when I was doing my books with POC, taking control of the entire process\u2026 I was thinking) and every step needs some compromise, which are sometime hard to swallow. So the worst moment is when you get the final object, when you know that now, it\u2019s too late, that you can not interact anymore, that the mistakes you find here are just definitive. For me, it\u2019s like falling in a black hole. This definitive aspect and all the expectation we have on this object makes it very psychological. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">I remember myself opening my \u201cMajorettes\u201d book for the first time. I would have jumped out the window that day\u2026 After that, I started to say to myself: \u201cOk, this is just fucking paper\u2026 In a few decades, all this will finish in a garbage, and nobody will care\u201d\u2026 I often think that we do books only for ourselves, like a vanity act. I think of that moment you face the object and discover that the perfection you\u2019re looking for is not here yet&#8230; And an hour later, you think of doing another book, another project! <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">A.P.<\/span><\/strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\"> I also think making books is a constant process of making compromises. You once called me from the printing press when you were doing Empire, a bit frustrated, and told me to imagine what might happen if we dumped thousands of euro into our home-pages, that we would reach a much wider audience, meaning more people would see the work. Isn&#8217;t that the point? More viewers? So why not just make an awesome home-page?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">C.F<\/span><\/strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">. Yes, but a website has nothing definitive. You may change your page every morning if you\u2019d like to. If we talk about the book as a promoting object, then yes, I guess there are hundreds of other way to make your work exist in this world. The average cost of a book is 20.000 euros. You could also decide to go for a trip with your children or look at the seaside instead of spending your nights correcting your RGB files\u2026 That\u2019s the big question: What is essential?<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">Having a webpage still doesn\u2019t mean that you\u2019ll have more viewers. You may have a telephone, but that doesn\u2019t mean that people are going to call you! It depends on why you need a website, and what you\u2019re showing on it.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">I guess, and I hope that there are still people who like to touch material, who appreciate the physical relation you have with a book, its ink smell, its unity, its intimacy. Maybe combining a book and a website makes sense. And still, who has the time to spend time on the website of a photographer? I guess the visit is very short. Maybe two or three minutes. I know a lot of famous photographers who don\u2019t have a website. And I know too many photographers spending more time on maintaining their website than on real life. Once you die, you\u2019ll receive a bill telling you that you\u2019ll have spent 5 years of your life correcting some files, photoshoping and updating your homepage\u2026 And 2 months only on having sex and good wine. Shame!<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">A.P.<\/span><\/strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\"> &#8220;Performance&#8221; is becoming more and more important in your work; you are taking on roles, entering inner circles, becoming a part of &#8220;the clan&#8221;, is it safe to say that &#8220;books&#8221; and &#8220;performances&#8221; are at the 2 ends of the spectrum: one lasting possible forever, embedded into the history of art and photography by taking its place on the shelf, the second lasting only for the moment, documented but never again tangible? Tell me about books and performances and how the relate to each other, if at all.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">C.F<\/span><\/strong><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">. I\u2019m not really a performer. I\u2019m a photographer, dealing sometime with other medium to expand the spectrum of my photographic possibilities. I think that photography is often reaching some limits. In my work, I felt that I needed to go further, to touch another sensible part of the \u201cclans\u201d while being a part of it myself or experimenting, for real, the life of my subjects. At the same time it is very romantic, and full of illusions. The more you try to get close, the more distant you get. I\u2019ve had the sensation of being an outsider everytime I was discovering a community. And this frustration became bigger and bigger year after year. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">In 2007, in Namibia, I suddenly jumped over my own limits. I was working with a Himba tribe in the Kaokoland. The Himba women are painting their body with a brown mixture, it smelled very strong. I wanted to have the same, also while risking to play with the fire of exotism, post-colonialism. So I did my first performance, in that way, documented with photography. In my work, performance is a sacred moment related to my sensation. I know how it feels to wear a uniform, I know the sensation of the painting on my face\u2026 I know the vibe, I feel it under my skin. I can talk about it and it\u2019s very fragile. It doesn\u2019t matter if finally, there\u2019s not a definitive way to forward this sensation. At least, it\u2019s inside myself and it\u2019s made my life better. Photography is sensible, but less than before\u2026 I\u2019ve been educated with this very mystical aspect of photography dealing with ghosts, ancesters\u2026 Watching a daguerreotype still makes me shake. Digital photography lost a bit of that. But the photographer has a body, which is sensible. We live our photographic experience with our body and the choice of our photographic projects are related to the capacity of our body. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">My work is physical. I often carry 20 to 40 kg of equipment. It\u2019s a bit like if I was carrying my cross. I need to have the sensation that there is a kind of physical sacrifice, that it hurts\u2026 I\u2019m Latin, you know. I need to carry my territory on my back. And this attitude has a real impact on the result of my pictures. That\u2019s a performance, in a way.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">I\u2019m often more interested in this sensitive part itself more than the photographic result now\u2026 which I consider more like a proof, a trophy or a \u201cscalp\u201d than just a good portrait.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">It\u2019s not exactly that books and performance are at the 2 ends of the spectrum<\/span><\/span><\/span><span style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">. <\/span><\/span><\/span><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">It\u2019s just that i twill take a lifetime to tell what goes deeply in my photographic work. I bet there will be a moment I will feel ready to write this down, in a book.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span lang=\"EN-US\" style=\"color: #1f497d;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">But you know, I feel like more of a photographer now than ever\u2026 <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/andrew-phelps.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/image-398-768x1024.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-841\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana, serif;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\";font-family: Georgia, serif;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/2.bp.blogspot.com\/_7G6Yz4F-mww\/S64ACB2BpBI\/AAAAAAAABTQ\/FdE8RCukfik\/s2048\/IMG_2152.jpg\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\"><\/span><\/a><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">speaking of &#8220;feeling&#8221;&#8230;<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">Charles getting a nice whipping by a Krampus on his last visit to Salzburg. <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana, serif;\">(photo by me)<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-family: verdana;\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">I suppose it comes as no surprise, but as we were Skyping yesterday, Charles told me that his 14th book, ITZA has just been printed&#8230;go Charles go.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: medium;\"><a href=\"http:\/\/www.artbooksheidelberg.com\/html\/en\/program\/detail.html?ID=389\">EMPIRE<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">Fr\u00e9ger\u2019s series Empire is a long-term project (2004 \u2013 2007) comprising portraits of a wide variety of elite troops across Europe, mostly Republican or Royal Guards, who stand out due to their historical and very colorful uniforms as to the draconic protocolary rule common in such units. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">Authors: Prosper Keating<br>Artists: Charles Fr\u00e9ger<br><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size: small;\">Hardcover<br>22 x 28,5 cm<br>176 pages<br>170 color ills.<br>English<br>available<br>ISBN 978-3-86828-097-5<br>39,90 Euro<br>2009<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"featured_media":3115,"template":"","class_list":["post-3114","buffet","type-buffet","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.5 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Charles Fr\u00e9ger - Empire and an interview - Andrew Phelps<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/andrew-phelps.com\/buffet\/charles-freger-empire-and-interview\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"de_DE\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Charles Fr\u00e9ger - Empire and an interview - Andrew Phelps\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"EMPIRE, Charles Fr\u00e9ger, 2009. Kehrer Publishing. Charles Fr\u00e9ger Empire &#8211; the baker&#8217;s dozen, nr. 13&#8230; my stack of Charles&#8217; 13. My friend and fellow POC,Charles Fr\u00e9ger has just released his 13th, (yes thirteenth), book with KEHRER Verlag, called EMPIRE. 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Kehrer Publishing. Charles Fr\u00e9ger Empire &#8211; the baker&#8217;s dozen, nr. 13&#8230; my stack of Charles&#8217; 13. My friend and fellow POC,Charles Fr\u00e9ger has just released his 13th, (yes thirteenth), book with KEHRER Verlag, called EMPIRE. 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